Just came home from a cafe chat with some friends (photographers too)
The topic's about Singaporean fashion photographers making it big overseas. Shooters like JOHN CLANG, LESLIE KEE, CHUAN DO etc.
Noticed that all singaporean photographers who became famous internationally are all shooting fashion.
Are fashion photographers overrated? What do you think?
I don't think the word "over-rated" is appropriate.
Just what the industry is willing to pay (to fashion/product photographers) to entice suckers (us!) to part their money for forgettable products that nobdy will look at the next season. There are some fashion photographers who took fashion photography to great heights, to "true art" - whatever this may mean. One that wows me is the one-eyed British photographer named Albert Watson.
Photographers who are great marketers will definitely make it. Notice his bio always says "...New York based...". If someone is "Singapore based" or "Mumbai based" the fees will definitely be in a different league.
Cheers
1 The word is "great marketers". And I agree with this. A well known photographer west coast (US) remains poor because he was a poor "marketer" . His correspondence to me showed his angst and frustrations. But he refused to comply to galleries demand and remain true to his vision. He truly pays a big price for "artistic" intergrity, whatever that means.Originally Posted by pete.wong
2 Unfortunately for us with the colonial mentality, foreign sounding names appear to be better. I may get shot for this. How many in this forum use their own parents given names? (OK OK, I retract that!! ) Notwithstanding this, at the end of it, the photographer, whether Singapore based, Mumbai based, or New York based, will still have to deliver. However it demands on what they offer, what they deliver. I have photography friends in New York and elsewhere in the States who make photographs that make Leslie Kee's efforts look like kindergarten production. Unfortunately the industry do not reward such "artists". They reward photographers who help them to sell products.The museums and other knowledgeable institutions do, and do collect photographs from these photographers. Unfortunately they (the nonfashion photographers) remain poor, because their photographs do not help to sell clothes, lingerie, watches, cars, pens, perfumes, jewellery, Singapore Esplanade, etc, etc.
Sigh!
Robert Frank remains a poor bloke last i heard.
people tend to confuse making big money with making big pictures...
1st of all, i really think leslie kee's stuff is nothing short of A-grade. His pictures is always so captivating and fresh to the eyes. If he doesnt have wat it takes, he wouldnt be where he is.
Yes, marketing do take some photographers far, but if u dun have the skills,
foresight and artistic flair, you will still be at ground zero!!!
Photographers who keep complaining about recognition should just shoot better stuff and show it to the world.
What is art to you?
Shooting foreign workers in little india or wrinkled old man in chinatown? that's what i always see in local photo forums. nobody really attempt something that even come close to leslie's stuff!!
taking a SLR on the street and shoot and shooting in the studio is entirely different. how many of you guys have what it takes to setup a proper lighting setup and have the nerves to survive the shoot without having wobbly legs and half the time not knowing what to do next, dunno how to direct the models?
that's my 2 cents worth, hope u guys dun mind..
If your friends really can make leslie kee's stuff look mediocre, he should already be internationally acclaimed!!! whether its fashion or fine arts, his stuff should fetch millions!!!
I do not really need to defend my friends. To quote you - "hope u dun mind". But you ask for it. One of my friends' photographs are collected by more than 60 museums in America and Europe. To name a few, Getty Museum, Smithsonian Institute, Washington DC, Museum of Modern Art, New York, Museum of Modern Art, San Francisco, Bibliotheque Nationale de Paris . Need I name more? One of his photographs was featured on the front page of the very prestigious B&W Magazine. Univ of California have just acquired his entire archives for posterity. My friend is indeed internationally acclaimed! It is just that you do not know about him. Perhaps the type of photographs you are interested in are very different. But the museums recognise his value. Perhaps the museums and Univ Cal need to have their heads examined?
Do you really want to compare? Perhaps we are talking on different wavelengths. But I think most will agree that one whose photographs are honored by museums/University will be quite different from one whose values are courted by the fashion industries alone.
Kindly also re-read carefully what I wrote. I had mentioned that I do not think that the word "over-rated" is appropriate. I do believe Leslie had achieved a certain proficiency. I had mentioned that the photographers will still have to deliver. To deliver the goods means their photographs must be of a certain standard, otherwise the payees will not want to pay the photographer, in this case, photographers like Leslie. What I had tried to emphasize is that the monetary value of fashion photographers far exceed their artistic value, BECAUSE THE FASHION INDUSTRY VALUES THEM. Because the industry know that they will make far more monies from suckers like us with the forgettable photographs the fashion photogaphers churn out. I use the word "forgettable" not to mean that they are not "nice/good", but that they have no lasting values. With exception, these photographs are destined for the trash cans when the next fashion issue comes out, because new photographs will be presented to titillate the suckers again.
My friend remains poor, because he does not take pictures that galleries told him to make. Pictures that the galleries owners know would sell. My friend remains true to his vision. I do not know Leslie personally. But I wonder if he dares to deliver to his payees photographs that do not help his payees to sell the fashion? and make money from us suckers?
seriously, i dun agree with your quote that the fashion photographers churn out pictures with no lasting values and destined for the trash cans...
you ever been on a fashion shoot? the efforts put in by the fashion photographers is no less than the fine art or photojournalists, if not more.
just that at times they are paid more, and received more recognition, that doesn't mean they are less appreciated.
its just that its different genre from what museums collect.
check out guy bourdin, he too , he dares to deliver photos which won't really help his payees sells their fashion. its becos, he shoots passion, he shoots ideals, he sets trends!!! ya, his work is collected by museums too... and i happen tohave the good fortune to own one of his book...
i too, believe, your friend's works is good, or else the museum wont collect them... good luck to them...good luck to passion...
Oh PLEASE do not agree with me! That would be boring! There are people who swears by the movie "Sex, Sling, and Sungei Road". And I am sure the movie rises to the occasion. For me I much prefer "Life is Beautiful". We all have different taste , don't we?
I am sure Leslie and John have brought "honor" to Singapore, and have shown that Singaporeans can make it big. Wonderful. There are fashion photographers whom I respect tremendously, amongst them Albert Watson and Irving Penn. There are fashion photographers and there are fashion photographers.
Have I been to a fashion shoot? Have I? I have been coached by two top French photographers in Paris. Do I know the difficulty of a fashion shoot? Do I? But I had long decided that I find fashion photography superficial and boring. Not for me. Others can enjoy it. PLEASE DO!
So all of us have different ideas. So there is a need for an arbiter. Who is/are the arbiters? I like the recent American Idols. Everybody (well almost everybody) thinks that he/ she is the greatest, including their supporters. But the judges and later the American public decide. Just because there are people who supports William Hung who actually have an album or two, does not make him an "artist". It is just that the industry is willing to pay him well because they know they can make more out of William Hung.
Now I am NOT equating Leslie to William Hung. Leslie does have talents. But it matters not the slightest bit how you or Leslie's supporters think how great Leslie is. Where do you think those photographs in the bus stops, FHM magazines, old HBD coffee shops (the Guiness Stout Girls) go to after they have exceeded their usefulness in selling the magazines, helping lonely men pass their time, and ladies part with their monies? Museums? or Trash cans?
But the photos of people like Weston, Stieglitz, Caponigro, Bernhard, etc etc etc, are like Bach, Beethoven and Bernstein when compared to the Beatles. Mind you, there was a time when I memorised ALL Beatles songs! But a time will come when people will ask, "Beatles. Who?" But Bach, Beethoven, and Bernstein will remain. This is enduring art. This is art that endures generations. This is art that does not cater for a season.
I will be very pleased if one day, just the Singapore Museum collects Leslie and John photographs. But until then. Meanwhile, I think my friend have a looooong headstart.
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